Halo Reach Beta Forum
  • Subject: Clip Size eliminates skill gap.
Subject: Clip Size eliminates skill gap.

Instead of quoting and responding to everything in detail, I'm just going to respond generally.

The descrepancies you and I are experiencing are solely based on that we have different views on what skill should be. This will never change and I cannot force my opinion on you. I believe skill should be based on how well a person can use difficult to master tactic while, from what I can see, you believe that skill is derived from the usage of many different skills that pertain to different situations regardless of the actual skill required to use them.

As well, you and I also differ on the opinions of how new players should be treated when it comes to getting better at a game. I'm more of a classic gamer and believe that not hands are to be held when someone starts playing a game. Better players stay better while newer and worse players can only get better through experience and growth. I can see that you believe that newer players shouldn't be left defenseless against veteran players.

There are other opinionated discrepancies that I just can't convince someone who's already stated what they believe in.

Such is the problem with debate and something that I cannot argue against I won't bother trying. You can't argue beliefs.

  • 05.20.2010 7:25 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: BeastOfFate
Instead of quoting and responding to everything in detail, I'm just going to respond generally.

The descrepancies you and I are experiencing are solely based on that we have different views on what skill should be. This will never change and I cannot force my opinion on you. I believe skill should be based on how well a person can use difficult to master tactic while, from what I can see, you believe that skill is derived from the usage of many different skills that pertain to different situations regardless of the actual skill required to use them.

As well, you and I also differ on the opinions of how new players should be treated when it comes to getting better at a game. I'm more of a classic gamer and believe that not hands are to be held when someone starts playing a game. Better players stay better while newer and worse players can only get better through experience and growth. I can see that you believe that newer players shouldn't be left defenseless against veteran players.

There are other opinionated discrepancies that I just can't convince someone who's already stated what they believe in.

Such is the problem with debate and something that I cannot argue against I won't bother trying. You can't argue beliefs.

If you don't like your hand to be held, download Final Fantasy XI and play the trial. Even if you look for help, the game makes sure there is nothing that will offer guidance.

Games are ENTERTAINMENT first and foremost. The balance of entertainment is not making your audience feel stupid while not leaving them in the dark as well. You, however, are not the majority and therefore designing a game that doesn't help the player would be like cooking a cake and forcing people to eat it without utensils because its more difficult that way.

Its also not fun. And Halo has always been the "pick up and play" shooter. Why should it stop now?

  • 05.20.2010 7:32 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Bungie pistol and DMR need bigger clips! You can only kill one person per clip!

  • 05.20.2010 8:09 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Halo 3 (31st) and ODST (14th) Mythic Conqueror (Solo, Legendary, All skulls on). Holder of 7 current world wide speedrun records.

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Haven't posted in a while. So this is gonna be a big one.

Posted by: Bourbon OWNS
The reason rapid fire spraying is a viable tactic is because with luck, it may kill faster than slow accurate shots. The pistol shoots up to 4 rounds per second. That means, counting from after the first shot is fired, you can empty a clip in 1.75 seconds flat. Shooting slower at 2 rounds per second gives you better accuracy so you can kill in 5 shots. That means a typical 5 shot kill takes around 2 seconds to complete.

Now, a 12 round magazine would take 2.75 seconds to empty firing flat out. In. case you didn't notice, that means 9 shots flat out takes 2 seconds, a similar kill time to the accurate 5 shot kill. Anything more, like 10, 11, or all 12 rounds takes LONGER to kill, so if your opponent hits all 5 of his shots, you won't even get to expend the rest of the magazine.

The 12 round mag wouldn't make spam any more effective than it is now.
Ohh yay! You quote somebody who can't even use math! That'll help! Using their numbers: 4rounds/s. 8 rounds, 8/4 = 2secs. 2rounds/s, 5rounds, 5/2 = 2.5secs.

12round mag, assuming ROF is the same: 12/4 = 3secs. 9rounds would take 2.25secs. In fact, given these numbers, someone firing at 4rounds/s could get off 10rounds in the same amount of time as the 2.5 second 5 round killer. Not 9.

This is ignoring the fact that only 7 of those need to hit the body for a kill. 10 rounds in the same time as the 5 shot kill (given the numbers YOU quoted and presented as part of your argument, not me) gives the 4shot per second person 2 extra chances to land the required number of shots before they are killed/run out of ammo. And thats ignoring the possibility that the 2 rounds per second person might be missing one or more of their own shots. So 4rounds/s guy might get even more bullets out if they got an even larger mag than 10.

So, 7/8 (87.5%) vs
7/10 (70%)

I'll take the larger mag! Spamming FTW!

Posted By:Threeshot
Grenades and melees are supposed to compliment weapons.[...] Not to be the main choice of action in a fight. They're there to help make kills a little easier and as a last ditch effort when necessary.

Melee and grenades are not 'last ditch' weapons, certainly not in Halo. Used and set-up correctly, they're powerful killing/softening tools in their own right. Sticky grenades? Tag 'em and they're dead. Assassinations? One hit kills! They do complement kills with weapons.

As Bourbon has stated a good player and a bad player will always get the same performance from every weapon now. Need I quote myself? I'll summarise: hitting accurately, you can do more than get 1 kill in a mag with a pistol: you can damage someone else.

Every weapon? How about the DMR? 12 shots, 5 shots to kill with a headshot. No headshot is 7 hits.

Perfect usage: 2 kills + half sheilds on a 3rd target. Miss a couple shots, maybe only 2 kills. Can't get a headshot on the first guy? You'll have to hit every shot and end the second with a headshot to get 2 kills. Miss more than 3? 1 kill and some damage on someone else.

Same performance? Really!? No skill gap? REALLY?


Posted by:TheRedFlag
I think the only thing standing in the way of this thread is the status quo of the beta. That is, everyone's defending the existing clip sizes because Bungie made them like that in the first place.

If Bungie released the beta with bigger clips in the guns, this thread would not exist, and no one would be complaining that the clips were 'too big.'
TheRedFlag is right, [...] no one would complain about wanting smaller magazines, would they?

The words may not have been the same, but the message could have been "pistol is overpowered!" "All these damn noobs spraying me with the AR! GRRR" You really think no-one, or less people would have complained with a larger mag sizes?

Hardly.

Your argument seems more to be precedence. That the Halo 1 pistol could get 4 kills in a mag, the BR could get 3 (which was never meant to be a spawn weapon BTW), so the weapons in reach should all be able to get more than 1 kill in a mag. Nevermind that the Pistol in Halo 1 turned out way more powerful than they were originally intending,

and the BR was among the only weapon good at a variety of ranges and sufficient to not feel gimped off-spawn. We have the Reach pistol now. Its awesome.


Your entire argument is based on the opinion that Bungie knows how to balance a game.Nope. Part of it is on the idea that you've no idea how to balance a game. You can look at it objectively (see above) and you can still see why things are the way they are.

All the questionable gameplay decisions they have made over the years tells me that isn't the case. Like making a pistol the best weapon in the game?

Heres a newsflash: Halo 1 wasn't perfect. The weapons were made for campaign. Not multiplayer. The pistol effectively made you never want to pick up another weapon. Melee was incredibly difficult to use, grenades took too long to explode. Theres a game where the balance was tipped too far in favour of the weapons. Halo 2, Halo 3, and finally Reach have been trying to tip it back a bit towards those two things to make it more interesting. Nothing more.

Here is a quote from MLGpro forums:
Ah yes, MLG. Whose community is largely: whiney, has an overzealous sense of self entitlement, terrible at giving feedback, demanding, twitchy gamers and (mostly) just want to recreate some 'golden age' of Pro Halo play as they see it.

Thats not hate speaking, I respect the MLG organisation and I also agree with some of their changes to stock maps and gametypes. But, what I posted above is exactly the impression I get when reading the Reach Beta feedback thread on their forums. And I've read a lot of it!

But thats ad hominem, you were saying?

What I'm not sure Bungie understands, is that at the end of the day, competitive gamers want to help casual gamers have a better experience too. I think this is utterly lost on Bungie. BWAHAHA. They may think so, they may say so, but all their actions and many of their goals are counter-casual completely.

The rest of the post is some grand statments with no real examples. He mentioned armour lock... I kill people who have armour lock far more than they get me. Sprint Hammer? Good strat. Once you realise someone has it, get high, get in the open. Then kill them.

What they think is balanced inside their studio doesn't mean a thing when you have a couple hundred thousand gamers playing. Not everything will be no. Which is why they've already noted some changes that they're going to make. By looking at the REAL numbers, the REAL data (that, unfortunately, we don't and never will have access to).

[...] obviously 70% of the players who have seen this thread disagree, because it kills all the flexibility in the shooting aspect of the game. Oooh, theres a bad leap of logic. 70% of respondees would like to have more bullets in their clips. Largely, I would guess, on a "yeah, sure" level of commitment. With little to no thought on how it would actually affect the game. And yeah, players who lean more towards the 'spamming' type of gameplay are giving you a 'yes vote too. The respondees aren't saying 'yes' for reason you give there.

-They thought that having the first melee never penetrate the shields was a good idea,Is actually. What was it, 8 bullets with the AR then a melee? That was awful.

but then there is no point to shooting in CQC because a double melee does the job better.Which is why they're fixing that.

You can pump 3 pistol rounds into a guy but if he punches you first, it doesn't matter because it will still take two punches to kill him as well. Shoot once more then and then punch. In CQC you can fire pretty damn fast and still hit. Its a different system.

[...] doesn't take the health bar into account,[..] full health [vs] in the red are on equal footing.In pure melee yeah. But in a combination with fire?

You don't need to do as much work on the red bar guy since you could pop them in the body instead of taking the more difficult headshot. Grenades also go straight through sheilds and can more easily kill a player with weakened health. Seems you're the one not taking it into account.

[...] but in practice it just makes it nearly impossible to kill with anything but grenades.Hyperbole. Yummy.

What it DOES do, is mean that getting jumped isn't as much of a death sentence. You have a greater window of time in which to realise the opponent is there, return fire, attempt to throw off their aim etc, and come out on top. Surely you support such things?

-They lowered the movement and strafe speed to make sprint worth using, but then shootouts are all about bloom and it is too hard to dodge grenades. 'Too hard' is a matter of opinion. Personally? They're fine and I dodge many grenades. But they're tweaking grenades anyway.

If your aim is so damn good that shootouts are all about bloo.... hyperbole again right? Bloom in itself is difficult to master, if the difficulty in hitting at target has shifted from trying to hit someone gyrating like a ladys' vibrator to getting the right timing down, well... Thats actually fine by me. 'strafe' was very twitch and hyper-activity promoting. Not great over the internet either.

[..]Bungie won't know what (or how) to fix them. Of course, you can fix Bungie's game for them. A little over confident in your abilites as a game designer aren't we?

*continues*

  • 05.20.2010 8:44 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Halo 3 (31st) and ODST (14th) Mythic Conqueror (Solo, Legendary, All skulls on). Holder of 7 current world wide speedrun records.

The Internet: Lightspeed Communication of Stupid Thoughts
Ignorance is the true enemy of all things.

Rocking Bungie.net for 5 years!

*continued from above*

We were able to kill several players without reloading in previous games, This isn't those games. Saying the game is different is not a valid reason.

[...] competitive Halo 1, 2, or 3, you would know that teamwork was just as powerful
At high levels of play, the differences in pure execution becomes negligable, investment is higher, and they begin seeking every advantage over the other team they can find. Like teamwork.

Look at matchmaking. No real teamwork appearing before level 35 or more (H3). Most players just wandered around lone wolf like.

If the innate design of the weaponry promotes a more team oriented approach, that brings teamwork down to lower levels of execution play. Which can only promote even better teamwork at even higher levels of execution play. Thats a good thing!

Let me give you an example: Spartan vs Elites. One on one, Elites outclass Spartans, faster, trickier... you know. After enough 1v1 beatings, the Spartans start bringing along a pal. The Elites start to lose more, maybe going 1 for 1 or worse. They start going in pairs, start winning again. The Spartans start keeping their entire team within engagement range, the Elites respond.

Result? Teamwork has been created within those who had none. Within a single match.

The effect is less pronounced in Spartan vs Spartan, but its still there.

[...] you cannot deny that there are several gameplay aspects that are severely hampered by the smaller magazines.
Yeah... Haven't seen a convincing argument yet. All you've said is that the individual doesn't seem as powerful, I can't pwn as much as I think is should be able to etc etc.

I feel way more useful spawning with a pistol than just the AR like in Halo 3. But its not a weapon you'll almost never swap out either.

Posted by: Bourbon OWNS
Obviously you kids didn't read the thread or you'd have come up with something better by now.
Explain to me how calling everyone else 'kids' is different from other people calling you a 'noob'? You're doing the very thing you were denouncing in the same post.

Posted by: Bourbon OWNS
Are you even old enough to remember CE, or were you in diapers then?
Oh, again... *facepalm* Now you're just a jerk.

[..] power weapons. You pick them up to gain a tactical advantage, not because they are the only way to win.
Anecdote: the other night I went 28 kills, 10 assist and 4 deaths in Invasion Slayer using mostly a pistol and DMR. Only 3 of my kills were non-weapon. The first frenzy using the pistol for 9 of the finishing blows. Power weapons are not the only way to win.

That is why BR starts were better. Better than an SMG, but once you had it there was little point to ever dropping it then. In the 'Halo ideal' they're too good as a starting weapon.

If they started you out with something usable the game would be far better. Thats why they have the pistol now. Scoped, headshot... I've already gone over this. You're just ignoring me.

[...] I'm saying it's still not quite enough, if you were able to kill 2 opponents per magazine it would be fantastic.If it was 10 rounds you'd have to be obscenely good to get 2 kills out if it. So you make it 12 rounds... wait, thats what the DMR is. Again, knock on effect on the entire sandbox. The pistol is set intentionally at 8 rounds. You fire way above the ideal rate of fire, have non-perfect aim, and hence miss more than 1 shot, and you can't get a body kill in the clip. You either have to finish with a headshot or reload. Thats your trade off.

Or use that weapon in your pocket...

Posted by: ThreeShot
Not one. Numbers don't lie. It's not an assumption but it's a fact.
The people interpreting them can.

Posted by: gemrock555
[..] but if you are not good, that means you probably do not fully understand the game and it's mechanics. therefore you should not be talking about game balance.
*bzzt* Wrong. Theres a lot on the execution side that requires a mix of both practice/familiarity, innate dexterity, and quick thinking. How many game developers do you know that are pro or exceptionally good at their own game? How many film critics, art critics, are good at making films/art themselves? Bungie are the engineers of the car we drive. Just because some are better at driving it that others, doesn't mean they know more about how to build a better one.

Thats a bad, elitist argument that has no basis in fact.

Posted by: Bourbon OWNS
[..]but if Bungie was really interested in discouraging spam, they would have given the Pistol 6 rounds, the AR 24, and the DMR 10. The current magazine sizes are completely arbitrary, copy and pasted
Yah...
5 shots kill with a headshot,
7 with body shots.
8 bullets in mag
And actually, 8 body shots exactly for Elites.

Fact is, in some situations, (eg. an opponent running away from you or is high above you, where you can't really hit their head quick enough) going for the body shot kill is a legitmate approach. Having to reload before that would be ridiculous and anti... nearly everyone. The way they are now, you have a little wiggle room for misses (or extra shots on another target). Maybe they didn't change them (for AR and pistol) from H3 because they didn't need to? Because those weren't the problems with said weapons? And where exactly was the 12 from DMR copied from? That weapon didn't even exist in Halo 3.

Combat Evolved. Remember when you first started out? It took you like an entire clip to kill damn near anything. But, as you got better at the game, your accuracy improved. [...]Ever considered this process simply hasn't happened yet for you in Reach? It took me a couple hundred games to start to get comfortable with the pistol, and now, after 400, I quite like it, but I'm no where near perfect with it. I keep misjudging ROF allowances and often my aim is simply bad anyway!

When Reach came out, the first thing I noticed is how bad the weapons sucked.First thing I noticed was how different it was to Halo 3. Makes one miss a lot to start with. Melee and spray weapons seem great to start with since its easy in CQC. Over time, the Pistol became my number 1 TOD.

For 9 years, guns have been an important part of Halo, and now all of a sudden they aren't? They still are. 4 of your top 5 TOD in standard are weapons. Number 5 being melee. You are the disproof of your own statement!

[..] posts in this forum, just endless people complaining [..] but did you even think that maybe Bungie went too far this time? Changes are always going to alienate somebody. When people are mad they shout it louder and longer than the people singing praises. Maybe they did change it so much that some people don't like it any more. But, whatever.


Oh, check this out [...] Enjoy. Also if you pay attention to the "full bloom" kills, kinda ruins your "spam" argument.This is... mostly useless.

As I said before, its not as simple as "fire it as fast as possible" vs "wait till it completely resets" You can be 'spamming' it at range even if you're not firing as fast as possible.

WHY? Because you're firing too fast for the range! Larger mags, in this context does increase spam, since you have more bullets to 'luck out' on in your mag and get a hit on the target. See the discussion right at the top of this post.

What it does give us is the absolute minimum kill time at point blank, and at greater range, the kill time we should be aiming to meet or beat as we attempt to push that boundary between ROF and accuracy trade-off.

Posted by: M0 Murder0
If they gave us the options to change individual weapon damage and magazine sizes for custom games,[...]

Just gonna note. I am 100% for being able to customise the game in nearly any which way you want, in custom games. Though, I dread the thought of the thousands of wannabe game designers going "perfected halo custom game setup!"

Posted by: Malachite
Go and ask any service member if they'd rather pack an AR or a Pistol as their primary and see what you learn.
You're using realism as your argument? In a game with shields, and jetpacks, and aliens? Here, have some realism.

Posted by: ThreeShot
Halo CE had a good balance with the guns, and Halo 2 (BR starts) did as well,
WTF?
Halo CE was Pistol all day long. Halo 2 was BR all day long (once they tweaked it about 5 times). Half the weapons were useless on their own and noob combo.... I just.... no.

There lies the problem. You assume it's an equilateral triangle where all sides are equal.
The -blam!-? You're assuming he's assuming its an equilateral triangle. He said 'use all of them' not 'use all of them equally.' Which you don't.

Posted by: ThreeShot
Hmm, I had a 2.0 k/d ratio, 3x as many kills with the DMR, Pistol, NR, and AR as I did deaths,
Had being the operative word. Don't post that other stuff about your stats when we can just go and check.

Wanna know what my pistol kills to deaths is? Nearly 4 to 1. Yeah. Its awful.

  • 05.20.2010 8:45 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

woah woah woah WOAH.

Sorry, but as an avid XI player I gotta call you out on that bogus statement lol. Square added a lot of tutorials for new players quite some time ago. That statement would have been valid say a year or so ago or more, but not now.


As for the main topic, yes it's entertainment, but this is a well established series. Bungie shouldn't be holding anyone's hands and catering to all the mouth breathers just for the sake of more sales. This is their final Goodbye and should be doing everything they can to make this the most epic Halo game ever for the fans.

Few developers have the stones to take this approach, like Hideo Kojima with the MGS series.

  • 05.20.2010 8:56 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
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Let's cut down on the insults to Bungie. Especially considering that your points are nothing more than opinion rather than an actual failing on Bungie's part.

  • 05.20.2010 9:20 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Malachite
woah woah woah WOAH.

Sorry, but as an avid XI player I gotta call you out on that bogus statement lol. Square added a lot of tutorials for new players quite some time ago. That statement would have been valid say a year or so ago or more, but not now.

I played it this year and was literally beyond lost. There was no indication of where I was, who to talk to or even a list of buttons! Having played WoW, Phantasy Star Universe, WAR, EVE and several free MMO's I was never more lost in my life! There isn't even a tutorial quest!

Posted by: Malachite
As for the main topic, yes it's entertainment, but this is a well established series. Bungie shouldn't be holding anyone's hands and catering to all the mouth breathers just for the sake of more sales. This is their final Goodbye and should be doing everything they can to make this the most epic Halo game ever for the fans.

Few developers have the stones to take this approach, like Hideo Kojima with the MGS series.

And potential fans...

BTW, Hideo Kojima doesn't sell a game, he sells an interactive movie with some gameplay thrown in from time to time.

[Edited on 05.20.2010 9:26 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 9:25 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: MGTrey
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All I know is that I never seen someone average a 7.0 K/D in any other Halo. That seems like a significant gap to me. I personally have never gotten more than a 1.5 before Reach, either. Just personal observations. Like most everything else in this thread.

@Ultima: Woah, hold up there partner. MGS is a great series. Can't deny that.

[Edited on 05.20.2010 9:40 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 9:39 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: MGTrey
@Ultima: Woah, hold up there partner. MGS is a great series. Can't deny that.

I never said it was bad. Just that it really isn't a "game" so much as an interactive experience. Although compared to Heavy Rain it is way more game-like.

  • 05.20.2010 9:42 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Gamertag: Big E33
Guild Wars IGN: Srak Scythe
Band (RB) : Toasty Captains.

this OP is win

  • 05.20.2010 9:45 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
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The Seventh Column demands it.

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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: MGTrey
@Ultima: Woah, hold up there partner. MGS is a great series. Can't deny that.

I never said it was bad. Just that it really isn't a "game" so much as an interactive experience. Although compared to Heavy Rain it is way more game-like.


I must say, this is the first time I disagreed with you completely and utterly in this thread.

I think this thread has evolved beyond mere "clip sizes". Perhaps a title change is in order, something much more broad.

  • 05.20.2010 9:48 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Frankie
Shut up nerds!

I saw my advantage so I took it...- Homer Simpson

WTF?
Halo CE was Pistol all day long. Halo 2 was BR all day long (once they tweaked it about 5 times). Half the weapons were useless on their own and noob combo.... I just.... no.

Pistol all day long? Oh, you mean the only mid-ranged weapon in the game? Where do the majority of fights occur in almost all FPSs? Oh yeah, mid-range. The pistol was used often but up close it was destroyed by the guns designed for close range: the AR, PR, and Shotgun.

And in Halo 2 the only imbalance caused was from the BxR. No matter what you think of it the BxR, if it was skilled or cheating, you can not deny it broke the balance. In close range, the duals, shotgun, and sword beat the hell out of a BR. When they buffed the melee and BxR become more popular THAT'S where the game's imbalance was created.

I will say this one more time. Guns should NOT be balanced around melee and grenades. Weapons should be balanced around weapons. Melee and grenades should be balanced around balanced weapons.

Melees aren't always a viable option. Grenades aren't always a viable option. In some situations neither are viable. These things are there to compliment weapons. Not to make up for weak power, short clips, and other short comings.

At the moment that's what they do. They make up for the fact that you can't reliably get more than one kill per clip. And with them both, melees and grenades, getting nerfed in the final game it's only going to make the pitiful weapons even worse!

If you keep saying increasing clip size will make grenades and melee suddenly worthless then just stop with it. I don't know a single person who didn't use them in CE which had MUCH larger clips and far more powerful guns. They will always be useful as a tactical tool.

Even in CoD which has insanely fast kill times people still use grenades and melees very often. There's even classes devoted purely to meleeing. In a game where you can die in 3 bullets, which can hit you in less than a quarter of a second, people still use these things to great effect.

Grenades and melees would not be in danger of being put on the backshelf.

If you feel increased clip size will make team work not as important then you're only lying to yourself. Team work has been important in every single team game since the dawn of history. Having a few more bullets in the clip will not change this.

Even in games where the individual player can have a huge impact on the game team work is essential. Like basketball for example. Kobe can have a huge impact and score a ton of points, but if his team isn't playing well then the Lakers will still lose.

Team work will come naturally with the game and doesn't need to be forced upon us. Good teams will still succeed over bad teams. We don't need Bungie baby sitting us and trying to get us to "play nice" with each other.

If clip sizes are increased then team work will still be important. In fact it'll be more important. Teams will have to work together more because of the danger of the individual. Not because they know they can't get anything done since their weapons are gimp. Along with the nerfed melee and grenades no longer being as big of an asset.

My god! You people are acting as if we're asking for infinite clips and all weapons as a 1 hit kill. Will 16 more AR, 2 more pistol, 5 more needle rifle, and 3 more DMR shots in their respective clips really be this horrible to you? Will increasing the ARs power from 22 shots to kill to 16 (only about a half second increase in kill time) really make this overpowered? Or will it just add to the game and help to speed it up just slightly?

[Edited on 05.20.2010 10:11 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 9:56 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Killtakular905
bungie duz not care bout me :'( /wrists
Posted by: Piercingtiger
Halo 3 brand toothpaste (It finishes the fight....against cavities!
Posted by: Biliruben
I'm so good at Halo, Chuck Norris has me as an avoided player.

Opinion + evidence + solid reasoning + not mocking doubters + grammar = good thread. Well done.
And I agree. I didn't realize what it was until now but you're right.

  • 05.20.2010 10:03 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
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Posted by: RabidHybrid
I didn't realize what it was until now but you're right.


I love how I called this like fifteen pages ago.

@current wall: Infinite clips would do nothing to meaningful encounters in the game. That can be applied to double or triple clip sizes as well. Which is why I suggested this thread become a general weapons rebalancing discussion in lieu of the very played out "clip size" argument.

[Edited on 05.20.2010 10:15 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 10:12 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
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I eat vowels like U for breakfast. Get off me.


I R camping with Sword Crouching Elite. Wort wort!

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Um, reticle bloom, HEALTH PACKS, fall damage and many of the new weapon mechanics are unlike any other FPS out there, even previous Halo's.



PSSS! Hey buddy it's called Call of Duty, it's always had reticule bloom.

  • 05.20.2010 10:14 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Frankie
Shut up nerds!

I saw my advantage so I took it...- Homer Simpson

Posted by: MGTrey
Which is why I suggested this thread become a general weapons rebalancing discussion in lieu of the very played out "clip size" argument.
This is what I've been fighting for for like 30+ pages. The clip size would help to rebalance them. I have no issue with the shots to kill on the pistol, NR, and DMR. It seems they kill mostly fast enough. It's just their low clip that needs a small increase.

The AR on the other hand needs a clip increase AND power boost. It's taking 22 shots to kill one person at the moment and only has a 32 bullet clip. When you account for human error, latency, and bloom this weapon is highly underpowered.

It's not bloom bothering me either. Although, I'd prefer bloom speed be increased to punish spammers more. As long as they reduce the bloom reset time of course.

  • 05.20.2010 10:23 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

373 Plasma Pistol kills and counting

Far bigger maximum bloom size to further punish spamming, much faster bloom reset. There is no excuse for the DMR taking 5 seconds to kill someone when you let the bloom reset. It should be 2-3.

If the close quarters weapons were actually powerful they wouldn't have to nerf the DMR so badly to compensate.

Bungie needs to stop nerfing and start buffing.

  • 05.20.2010 10:32 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: MGTrey
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The Seventh Column demands it.

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Posted by: ThreeShot
Posted by: MGTrey
Which is why I suggested this thread become a general weapons rebalancing discussion in lieu of the very played out "clip size" argument.
This is what I've been fighting for for like 30+ pages. The clip size would help to rebalance them. I have no issue with the shots to kill on the pistol, NR, and DMR. It seems they kill mostly fast enough. It's just their low clip that needs a small increase.

The AR on the other hand needs a clip increase AND power boost. It's taking 22 shots to kill one person at the moment and only has a 32 bullet clip. When you account for human error, latency, and bloom this weapon is highly underpowered.

It's not bloom bothering me either. Although, I'd prefer bloom speed be increased to punish spammers more. As long as they reduce the bloom reset time of course.


AR doesn't really need more bullets to fill the air with, just an upgrade to its range or an increase in its power or a balanced combination of the two. That way, to engage more than two opponents, you'd have to use your secondary weapons, but you can still fight them in the first place.

@Bourbon: You don't have to wait for bloom to completely reset unless you are cross mapping with the DMR. Otherwise, the timing of shots becomes much lower (especially if you aim for the body then the head). You'll be killing in less than three seconds then.

[Edited on 05.20.2010 10:34 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 10:32 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Frankie
Shut up nerds!

I saw my advantage so I took it...- Homer Simpson

Posted by: MGTrey
AR doesn't really need more bullets to fill the air with, just an upgrade to its range or an increase in its power or a balanced combination of the two. That way, to engage more than two opponents, you'd have to use your secondary weapons, but you can still fight them in the first place.

That's what they tried in Halo 3 and look how badly that turned out. It doesn't need range. It's not made for range. It needs power and high capacity to be a good close ranged weapon.

At the moment people are still dropping their AR for just about anything or switching to their pistol right off spawn. That because it doesn't have the close range power to justfiy using it over ANY other weapon at the moment. Even the plasma pistol is better than it.

  • 05.20.2010 10:38 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

"Providing targets for clear headshots since 2009"

I'd like to have RC and Bourbon on a talk show panel.

/popcorn.

I'm really starting to feel what RC is saying about the thought behind how the magazine sizes are determined.

I'm even starting to question my own though that the Spartans need increased speed. Increased speed means better evasive maneuvers. Better evade means more misses, which means more shots fired, which means more reloading.

It's like the economy. Everything has a ripple effect. Maybe more speed is better, but then they'd need to put more rounds in the magazines, which means the grenades need more fine tuning, which might lead to all sorts of other things that we just can't foresee...

What I love about Halo has been the run and gun gameplay and the sci-fi setting. This is still in Reach. I'm not sure where I come out on this topic now, except something feels a shade off. Just a shade. I trust Bungie will use the millions and millions of games played to formulate solutions. I'm looking forward to the fall.

[Edited on 05.20.2010 10:40 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 10:39 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: MGTrey
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The Seventh Column demands it.

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Posted by: ThreeShot
Posted by: MGTrey
AR doesn't really need more bullets to fill the air with, just an upgrade to its range or an increase in its power or a balanced combination of the two. That way, to engage more than two opponents, you'd have to use your secondary weapons, but you can still fight them in the first place.

That's what they tried in Halo 3 and look how badly that turned out. It doesn't need range. It's not made for range. It needs power and high capacity to be a good close ranged weapon.

At the moment people are still dropping their AR for just about anything or switching to their pistol right off spawn. That because it doesn't have the close range power to justfiy using it over ANY other weapon at the moment. Even the plasma pistol is better than it.


It desperately needs more range than it has, because it gets completely outclassed by the PR, shotgun, melee weapons and pistol. As it stands now, the AR is a close range only weapon. That puts it at a disadvantage to the majority of the Reach sandbox.

If people could use it as a threat from a true middle range, Reach wouldn't dissolve into melee fests and ALers owning people (:D) all the time. Also, give the AR more stopping power. Make that thing versatile, not the shotgun's ugly cousin.

Also, the H3 AR was not bad, it was the next best non-PW after the BR, it's just that the BR was the best non-PW option at every range.

[Edited on 05.20.2010 10:47 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 10:46 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Frankie
Shut up nerds!

I saw my advantage so I took it...- Homer Simpson

Like I said the AR needs more power. At the moment it's range is fine if you burst fire it. But to give a close range automatic any chance at all it also has to have the capacity to account for human error and bloom.

We have the pistol to act as our mid-range spawn weapon. We don't need another. We need a good close range one. The AR is close but so far at the same time.

  • 05.20.2010 10:53 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

373 Plasma Pistol kills and counting

Making your opponent miss is the whole point of strafing.

You know that thing you used to do in the other Halo games? But you are too slow to do it now?

almost every gun fight has two people running at eachother, guns blazing, with bloom the only deciding factor. if you don't get the kill, press LT or RB.

Those epic Halo CE pistol battles rarely ended in three shots because good strafing is just as integral to success as good aim is. On PC with a mouse I usually kill in around 5-6 shots against a strafer (no autoaim really makes a big difference) but if someone runs straight at me? They drop in under a second.

God I love CE I've been playing it every day now. When you find a server with low ping it is unbelievably fun. Any of you got it, I'll host a match sometime.

[Edited on 05.20.2010 11:00 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 10:57 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: MGTrey
  • user homepage:

The Seventh Column demands it.

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Posted by: ThreeShot
Like I said the AR needs more power. At the moment it's range is fine if you burst fire it. But to give a close range automatic any chance at all it also has to have the capacity to account for human error and bloom.

We have the pistol to act as our mid-range spawn weapon. We don't need another. We need a good close range one. The AR is close but so far at the same time.


The pistol is the all purpose weapon. It can work in all the ranges within reason. The AR will need to be much more than just another close range weapon if it doesn't want to be put down for damn near anything on the ground. Shrink the reticle a bit and give it a little boost in power and it can at least contend with the PR. :/

  • 05.20.2010 10:57 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas